Jim Gale | Food Forest Abundance & Breaking the Scarcity Spell

Not a fan of this one since to me, its got strong Libertarian grift vibes. The guy obviously has no idea what communism or socialism actually are either. The anarchist ideal is nice but some organization is necessary. For all of their faults, the Soviets went from a feudal backwater to an industrial powerhouse (and reached space!) in a few generations. Can't really achieve something like that of everyone is living in some homesteading commune.

animistspark wrote:
Not a fan of this one since to me, its got strong Libertarian grift vibes. The guy obviously has no idea what communism or socialism actually are either. The anarchist ideal is nice but some organization is necessary. For all of their faults, the Soviets went from a feudal backwater to an industrial powerhouse (and reached space!) in a few generations. Can't really achieve something like that of everyone is living in some homesteading commune.

Good thing the Soviets could feed all those people with Moon cheese, eh comrade?

Funny, I actually found the libertarian vibes amazing, probably because I'm a Libertarian. And yes, Libertarianism is a grift. To survive in a state of liberty you need to have a base level of capability. The grift is convincing a population of incapable people (like you) that they are in fact capable of surviving without suckling off Galt's teet. Spoiler: We know you aren't capable, and we know you wouldn't survive. In the end the grift is really on us, because even though we wouldn't be forced to, all of us capable people would end up supporting the surplus population out of charity.

I like the ideas this guy has, but I seriously doubt the viability. It is one thing to have a food forest in your Caribbean yard, or even Florida yard. But for a person in Minnesota to do it is not the same. My grandfather had an apple orchard in the Twin Cities area and it was decimated by a late freeze where he lost every single tree. Yes he started over but the idea of set it and forget it is naïve.

I also dispute the "nature knows best" mantra. If we left it to nature, there would be no apple trees, or no apple trees as we think of them. There is no naturally occurring apple tree that bears apples a human would find appealing. Apples are also not very nutritious. I am picking on a single tree but still, the available fruit trees have all been heavily modified from their original natural state. The fruit tree you buy today is about as natural as an ear of corn (corn being the original GMO). When I go out into unspoiled nature, I find a bunch of trees that do not provide food. I don't live on a Caribbean island.

As a suburban resident, I also have a hard time believing that anything would successfully grow in my soil without significant effort, or chemicals. In sub developments you are basically planting into landfill, clay and substrate "soil" that produces very weak crops. The reason I use chemicals on my lawn is because the nutrients are simply not there. The way to change that would be to mix animal dung and compost into the soil, but the amount of amendment would be obscene and not nearly so easy as this guest makes it sound.

This guy gets an A for vision, but I think an F for viability. Or maybe I'm a shitty gardener.

Two 51 year olds in a row.

And what do you know? I'm in central Florida. Will definitely check out the project. It's nice to know we can grow something other than oranges here.

Food and water are the foundation of self-determinism.

Good show.

dingus wrote:
My grandfather had an apple orchard in the Twin Cities area and it was decimated by a late freeze where he lost every single tree. Yes he started over but the idea of set it and forget it is naïve.

I also dispute the "nature knows best" mantra. If we left it to nature, there would be no apple trees, or no apple trees as we think of them. There is no naturally occurring apple tree that bears apples a human would find appealing. Apples are also not very nutritious.

Was your grandfather using regenerative agriculture in the Twin Cities area? Or any sort of ancestarl growing techniques that would help buffer his monoculture orchard from a flash freeze?

I don't mean to poke, but between receiving permaculture training in hot, arid Nevada & living with some very mid-western grandparents, I see that much of what previous generations have been taught about interacting with nature is very counter intuitive. Yes, humans have created foods like the grapefruit, apple, and broccoli, but that does that take away from the value of having perennial medicinal herbs bordering your curbs? Or utilizing your own grey water to feed your garden instead of dumping it into tax-fed muni systems? I see where you're coming from, but "as a surban resident" you may just be thinking like one. I'd suggest Masanobu's Single Straw Revolution to get the gears turning.

Again, I mean no disrespect here. I'm just saying that if you looked into this stuff, you might find some useful information. Of course, permaculture does not work perfectly in every growing zone. But every growing zone had a group of people who learned how to live off their land, and documented methods of procuring sustenance. So if we listen to them....and grow ground cover plants that grow quickly, die & decompose, and PROVIDE shade & nutrients for the soil....you wont need to purchase harsh additives, till & disrupt the earth every spring/fall, and pick weeds all year.

I thought this show was great, albeit cheesy at times. But I did appreciate Jim's vigor and the incorperation of more food & self-health shows on THC. I think this is a very important topic to breach with people in this circle. Thanks Greg!

A.Lo wrote:
receiving permaculture training

I think you need to re-read my post. My problem with the host wasn’t the idea of permaculture, it was the idea that it was so easy. You can’t just throw a cutting into the ground and BOOM your selling apples at the farmers market for mad profits. Nature won’t provide for you without a significant amount of effort helping it along (outside of the perfect conditions that the host seemed to always end up living in). You received “training”; do you think you could have grown a food forest in the Midwest by just planting a few trees and letting nature take its course? 30 minutes of work a year?

Love this episode reached out to him an am going to partner with him throughout the Denver area. I am a local remodel contractor and landscaping falls into my scope of projects often and I feel this will be a nice compliment to my existing business. Not to mention I believe in it

dingus wrote:
I like the ideas this guy has, but I seriously doubt the viability. It is one thing to have a food forest in your Caribbean yard, or even Florida yard. But for a person in Minnesota to do it is not the same. My grandfather had an apple orchard in the Twin Cities area and it was decimated by a late freeze where he lost every single tree. Yes he started over but the idea of set it and forget it is naïve.

I also dispute the "nature knows best" mantra. If we left it to nature, there would be no apple trees, or no apple trees as we think of them. There is no naturally occurring apple tree that bears apples a human would find appealing. Apples are also not very nutritious. I am picking on a single tree but still, the available fruit trees have all been heavily modified from their original natural state. The fruit tree you buy today is about as natural as an ear of corn (corn being the original GMO). When I go out into unspoiled nature, I find a bunch of trees that do not provide food. I don't live on a Caribbean island.

As a suburban resident, I also have a hard time believing that anything would successfully grow in my soil without significant effort, or chemicals. In sub developments you are basically planting into landfill, clay and substrate "soil" that produces very weak crops. The reason I use chemicals on my lawn is because the nutrients are simply not there. The way to change that would be to mix animal dung and compost into the soil, but the amount of amendment would be obscene and not nearly so easy as this guest makes it sound.

This guy gets an A for vision, but I think an F for viability. Or maybe I'm a shitty gardener.

Yeahhhhh it’s not easy. That’s why you don’t see it everywhere. I live in Michigan about 5 minutes away from Lake Huron, so I’m well aware of lake effect snow, wind chill, blah blah blah. I was lucky enough to grow up on a farm, so I already had some tricks up my sleeve for winter. The problems we face in the north are not the same that they face in the south, so it takes a bit of shenanigans and planning to get it correct. I would suggest building a wind break to block the cold stuff coming from Canada as well as blocking off wind from major lakes. The one for the lakes should be movable, so in the summer you can get the cooling effects.
for soil amendment, start with raised beds. Dig under where you plan on putting it and add some good soil and untreated wood in the hole before throwing your cardboard over it. Then next season move the beds to a different part, or add more and repeat the process. It’s important to rotate your crops though. If bed 1 has tomato in it for this season, it has to have something else in it next season. Over time you’ll see a difference. It’s not perfect or instant, but it’s better than admitting defeat.
Work hard and stay positive and you’ll be seeing results in no time

Really enjoyed this one thanks for the good find Greg and congrats