shamangineer wrote: He typed out on his computer. . .
I work doing manual labor & don't expect 'free' shit from anyone...I also realize that we live the way we do today because our ancestors here in the West did back-breaking work in conditions none of us can even imagine (while managing to keep the govt. largely off of their backs)...all the nonsense/whining I hear today from entitled people ("OMG, why should I have to work!???") is appalling.
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I would never sleight a person for their labor no matter the form (unless it is parasitic or exploitative). I realize there are a lot of hard working people out there, but what if you didn't HAVE to work so hard for minimal pay while being disrespected by the people who hardly work for what they have and take the bulk of the rewards for your labor? 60% of the wealth in this country is inherited, just a thought.
shamangineer wrote: I would never sleight a person for their labor no matter the form (unless it is parasitic or exploitative). I realize there are a lot of hard working people out there, but what if you didn't HAVE to work so hard for minimal pay while being disrespected by the people who hardly work for what they have and take the bulk of the rewards for your labor? 60% of the wealth in this country is inherited, just a thought.
If you take a longer-viewed look, you'd see that earning a living today is far easier than it once was. Life is so easy, I have time to waste arguing economics w/a stranger online, LOL!
No doubt there are parasites out there who I'd have no problem seeing have their stuff taken. The biggest parasite for me and most working people, however, is the Tax Man who represents our #1 expense...the SOB steals 40-60% (depending on how its measured) of my labor & gives it to assholes who didn't earn it!
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hisich wrote: If you take a longer-viewed look, you'd see that earning a living today is far easier than it once was. Life is so easy, I have time to waste arguing economics w/a stranger online, LOL!
Is that why most indigenous cultures worked between 2-4 hours a day before being "civilized"?
hisich wrote: No doubt there are parasites out there who I'd have no problem seeing have their stuff taken. The biggest parasite for me and most working people, however, is the Tax Man who represents our #1 expense...the SOB steals 40-60% (depending on how its measured) of my labor & gives it to assholes who didn't earn it!
What do you think the tax man does with it? We have a Federal deficit for a reason. The fact that YOU aren't getting a good return on this investment is not an accident, and not because democracy cannot work. It is because OUR DEMOCRACY HAS BEEN HIJACKED. And I guarantee you it was not by people barely scraping by on welfare. It is because our government spends ten times as much on corporate welfare as it does citizen welfare. If you remember recently Amazon's headquarters resulted in a bidding war to throw money at the world's richest man. The rich get remarkable returns on investment when it comes to making campaign contributions.
https://splinternews.com/the-thirst-for-amazons-hq2-is-back-and-bleak-as-ever-1832586528/amp
One thing I marvel over is how people can complain so vociferously about paying taxes (and talking about that as theft - never-mind roads, ect.) while completely ignoring that the pay they take home is a much smaller fraction of the output of their labor than what their labor produced. Your employer takes more of your labor than what the government ever could take from you.
hisich wrote:
No doubt there are parasites out there who I'd have no problem seeing have their stuff taken. The biggest parasite for me and most working people, however, is the Tax Man who represents our #1 expense...the SOB steals 40-60% (depending on how its measured) of my labor & gives it to assholes who didn't earn it!
Hisich, I still think you are contradicting yourself. Let me point out a few things:
- You mention the burden of taxes carried on citizens shoulders. Yet, do you know many of those major corps pay 0% in taxes?
Case in point, Netflix just annouced record profit of $845Million and paid 0% taxes, which is common for these Fortune 500 companies.
Don't you think the working citizen, guys like you who work labour, deserve a share of that, at least towards public services?
And based on some of your previous point, here's why a UBI would align with your interests:
- UBI reduces bureaucracy: No-strings-attached money means you cut down on welfare programs replaced by UBI (or a great portion of it).
- UBI increases bargaining power for workers: Because now you can say "no" to exploitative work.
This means less government interference, and less bureaucracy, which means less spending, and more money that can go to other programs.
And this I quote from Yang's campaign site:
- UBI helps people make smarter decisions. Studies have shown that people in straits of economic insecurity have a reduced cognitive ability equal to 13 IQ points. UBI would provide the security people need to focus on important things like their families.
- UBI improves labor market efficiency because fewer workers are stuck in jobs that are a bad fit. National productivity will improve because people will be able to seek work that is more rewarding and promote higher job satisfaction.
You seem against stupid 18-yrs old voting, but ever thought why there are stupid, and miserable? Maybe they didn't get a chance to live in happy households. Ever thought of PTSD veterans, or abuse victims who can't go to work? Shouldn't they deserve a chance to live with dignity?
There's a cliché saying that UBI is not left, nor right. It's forward. And I can say with sincerity, there's something in it for everyone, including libertarians that want less governemnt programs. So once again, I'd encourage you to look up what it entails.
shamangineer wrote: Is that why most indigenous cultures worked between 2-4 hours a day before being "civilized"?
What do you think the tax man does with it? We have a Federal deficit for a reason. The fact that YOU aren't getting a good return on this investment is not an accident, and not because democracy cannot work. It is because OUR DEMOCRACY HAS BEEN HIJACKED. And I guarantee you it was not by people barely scraping by on welfare. It is because our government spends ten times as much on corporate welfare as it does citizen welfare. If you remember recently Amazon's headquarters resulted in a bidding war to throw money at the world's richest man. The rich get remarkable returns on investment when it comes to making campaign contributions.
https://splinternews.com/the-thirst-for-amazons-hq2-is-back-and-bleak-as-ever-1832586528/amp
If not for the Tax Man (who also stifles innovation) I could get by working 2-4 hours a day, LOL.
Why do you keep referring to the current system as "our democracy"? I wasn't consulted when the system was created nor was I asked for my consent to it.
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shamangineer wrote: One thing I marvel over is how people can complain so vociferously about paying taxes (and talking about that as theft - never-mind roads, ect.) while completely ignoring that the pay they take home is a much smaller fraction of the output of their labor than what their labor produced. Your employer takes more of your labor than what the government ever could take from you.
"Muh roads" (inside joke to AnCaps), ha, ha, ha!
Ever think that roads/highways maybe aren't the way we should be traveling long distances...? Ever think how much petrol-usage & use of resources to build automobiles "muh roads" promote? Do you know what the interstate hwy system did to devastate small towns, break-up families, and promote centralized big-box production of consumable goods that end up being trucked all over place on the 'free' roads?
If not for govt. building roads, we might have various different options like trains/subways, blimps, more cities designed more for walking/biking, more travel by helicopter/small aircraft, etc., as well as more locally-centered economic activity. Instead we get urban sprawl & people sitting in traffic, idling their cars, while commuting 1-2-3 hours to/from work everyday.
The reason most of us have 'employers' is because govt. regulated us into being 'employees', largely via the income-tax which is basically turning human-beings into govt. collateral in exchange for loans from the central-bank (also a creation of govt.).
As I said, depending on how its measured, I (a middle-income earner) work 40-60% of the time just to pay the cost of govt...sorry, but for the meager 'services' I receive in return I don't consider this a great deal.
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Hisich, I've lost track of where you're trying to go with this.
But just so you know, if you're promoting less government intervention, you might wanna re-consider your position on UBI. There's more in common than you think.
hisich wrote: "Muh roads" (inside joke to AnCaps), ha, ha, ha!
You should take a trip to Honduras as it is a giant Libertarian experiment. I am sure when you have people asking for tolls in exchange for filling up potholes with dirt and debris out of sheer desparation, you might have a better appreciation of "yuh roads" among other things.
shamangineer wrote: You should take a trip to Honduras as it is a giant Libertarian experiment. I am sure when you have people asking for tolls in exchange for filling up potholes with dirt and debris out of sheer desparation, and you might have a better appreciation of "yuh roads" among other things.
Wow, thank you Shamangineer for that link. I did not know about Honduras being an actualized libertarian government put in place, and it confirms all the horror that leads to a neo-capitalist's wet dream.
Meanwhile, and I don't want to necessarily make this about Yang, but his actions speak louder than words. Respect.
https://twitter.com/AndrewYangVFA/status/1096232435694612480
I skimmed a lot of this, burning to throw this out there.
Money is printed paper, made by a corporation and handed out to corporations that WE pay "interest" on.
Unless we can burn it all down why shouldn't that money come through the people instead of the corporations for a change?
metalegs wrote: I skimmed a lot of this, burning to throw this out there.
Money is printed paper, made by a corporation and handed out to corporations that WE pay "interest" on.
Unless we can burn it all down why shouldn't that money come through the people instead of the corporations for a change?
It's a good point, and why the so-called trickle-down economics, meaning reducing taxes corporations and on wealthy class to stimulate investment, I mean I'm not an economist, but I don't feel it's working well, at all. Anywhere. It's classic scam taken straight out of Animal Farms.
The other point you alluded to, about currency itself is important too. In the context of France, true sovereignty will only come about if 1) France draws a line from the EU-dystopia and 2) Create a new, national currency (New Franc, like we used to have before 2000) printed by the government without paying interests on it.
Again, I'm not an expert by any means in economy, but I feel it will really (r)evolutionize, or stimulate, the economy. I certainly never learned at school, nor at university, that money printed was de-facto charging interest. It shows how the establishment doesn't want you to know how it works.
Last but not least, if I'm not mistaken, the last american president to have dared to announce that option was JFK, and we all know how it ended..
Still, there is light at the end of the tunnel. People in France are increasingly talking about this, and it gives me faith.
PS: One novel idea that Andrew Yang discussed with Joe on that episode, was the idea of giving every american a $100 democracy-fund. This would allow everyone a chance to contribute towards their choice campaigns. I'd love to hear more about that.
Oh, and I donated $1 towards Yang's campaign yesterday, so I guess I unapologetically rigged the american election. Sorry, not sorry 😉
The presidents who went against a central bank and tried to have the Treasury issue money were Andrew Jackson, Lincoln, and JFK. All three were either assassinated or in Jackson's case lucky as he had two pistols aimed at his belly misfire. An excellent documentary on the subject of money issuance in America below:
The Secret of Oz:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U71-KsDArFM
I haven't gotten round to listening yet I will updated afterwards but I'm of-aye with the concept of UBI
We sort of have a version of it in the UK already but there are lockdowns mechanisms and loads of hoops to jump through to get it.
If you are out of work unable to work due to disability, etc etc the Goverment gives you a basic allowance to cover the basics food, shelter, warmth etc. and then theres the basic social free to use social health and dental care. Its not much and varied on circumstanes were talking £600 a month maybe less, probably more if you have to pay the slum landlord haha
But you report to a local Goverment office each week in person to and report things like what you are doing to find a job (i looked at the job listing, i applied for 3 jobs yada yada)
Any employment found that goes over a tiny amount of hours or money will mean your goverment money is removed deducted or delayed. the overall knock on effect is people put more effort into jumping through the hoops of the system to stay within it than developing themselves.
Employed people are given £11,000 a year tax free allowance so you can earn that much before the gov starts taking their tithe but there are stealth taxes like on insurance for your car (compulsory) purchase taxes etc etc.
When the Finnish did the UBI quite a few Finnish teens turned up and went backpacking around Eastern Asia - they knew it was a time limit and used it to there advantage.
I suggest that if the same basic income the European Govs give is not linked to the hoop jumping and efforts to stay in the system then the people have been given sufficient to survive - and the rest is up to them. they can go to creative pursutis and do a little entrepreneurial stuff on the side - work part time job to get the added benefits of a corporate job etc etc.
They are already giving the money anyways - the money saved on the admin and buildings etc to ensure the plebs jump through hoops can at first be put towards support through the transitional period and then the long term over a few years the people will change their view and attiudes toward it
But i do see how this could easily be the start of chipping people - save on the issuing money and just scan your hand to deduct a certain amount from your UBI account - scan hand to get health care etc.
I recall John taylor gatto explaining the end of Slavery in the USA - mainly because the owner had to take care of the health of the sick old mama etc - So if they could turn them into wage slaves then they wouldn't have to take care of the non-productive workers
Apply the same logic to UBI - loads of money saved on admin - if the pleb falls they have no obligation to catch him in the safety net, other people will likely not support them as they are in the same boat and its a dog eat dog world - the prisoners turn into guarding the other prisoners - Like the Chinese social credit system - link it to UBI and you'll have people grassing on minor things to increase their score and UBI credit.
The slaves will kill each other or themselves so they don't have to get blood on their hands!!
If the future is more enlightenment and the stable structure crumble in this crazy world - theres gonna be a load of people who won't cope very well with personal responsibility - After the USSR fell millions of russians drank themselves to death in the face of no one to TELL them to do this or that.
