Why is the Ruling Class promoting UBI...?

hugh johnson wrote: I said no such thing. But it is a tool, just like any government policy.

In that case, slavery was neither good nor bad...just a tool to get things done in society...

hisich wrote: In that case, slavery was neither good nor bad...just a tool to get things done in society...

Yes, if you are a psychopath.

Or modern organised crime gang that trade in human trafficking, sex slavery "livestock"

It seems that some assume that only a cynical interpretation of the word universal is possible.

Slavery is bad, mmkay. Freedom is guud. That freedom must include freedom from hunger, disease, homelessness and disenfranchisement. Anything else is a lever of social control and a way to turn otherwise decent folk into sociopaths enriching psychopaths to ensure that they don't fall through a crack and find themselves on the street.

nickzeptepi wrote: Yes, if you are a psychopath.

Or modern organised crime gang that trade in human trafficking, sex slavery "livestock"

Can you explain to me how the govt. functions any differently than a psychopathic organized crime gang or slavery corporation...?

Or, for that matter, how you promoting UBI is any different...?

shamangineer wrote: It seems that some assume that only a cynical interpretation of the word universal is possible.

Slavery is bad, mmkay. Freedom is guud. That freedom must include freedom from hunger, disease, homelessness and disenfranchisement. Anything else is a lever of social control and a way to turn otherwise decent folk into sociopaths enriching psychopaths to ensure that they don't fall through a crack and find themselves on the street.

...and if you have to use the 'tool' of slavery in order to create your risk-free world so be it!

hisich wrote: ...and if you have to use the 'tool' of slavery in order to create your risk-free world so be it!

There would absolutely still be risk. Just not the risk of dying destitute in the streets of a medical condition or due to a job loss.

Slavery is a situation where the most basic of needs and rights are conditional and are tied to authority. Freedom is a condition where needs and rights of a person do not face constraints unless they negatively impact others.

It's hard for me to even consider slavery as a productive tool, even if I'm a sociopath/misanthrope. For one, it's like swimming across the Atlantic with stones in your pocket. You may swim a few miles if you're really good, but it's a dead-end, though I could be wrong.

The one thing I like to ask people is: what would you do, if you had an extra $1,000 a month? Would you immediately quit your job? If so, why?

I've heard some of my colleagues say, 'well, it wouldn't change much to my situation'. But for the most part, people aren't adverse to it. It's only when it comes to how Others may use it, that all the stigma and bias comes at the forefront. Or if they like the idea, their next challenge becomes "where does the money comes from?". But that's already a step ahead in the dialogue.

Another reflection I had, was that perhaps I took for granted that given some resources, people would generally go towards achieving their sense of Meaning in life. And of course, why should it be so? In fact, I think that the biggest change that needs to happen, in conjunction of a UBI, is a discussion on where we are headed, and what are we to do.

Reflecting on the big questions: What kind of world we would want our children to grow up in? This kind of conversation is what I think is required for proper guidance in the right direction (culturally, economically and ecologically).
In the end, I can't stop someone to buy a kilo of opioids with a $1,000 and overdose on it. But, we may be able to help that person get access to resources that will turn his/her life around. So a UBI is really just the tip of the iceberg for me.
Like taking psychedelics, it's all about Set & Setting.

Hopefully, that's coherent enough.

PS: The thing I like about UBI is not so much It, but what it's based upon. That is: Decentralization (which adds redundancy at every 'node'; and in turn creates resilience); Localised (you're free to use the cash as you see fit in your context, (within the confines of the law)); and Universal: everyone eligible gets it (once again, the scales may differ: municipality; regionally; nationally; or beyond)

If you look at Nature, these are the same principles that are observed. Cells in our body only survive because they all have access to energy; if it was up to only a few at the top (e.g., the brain cells) the whole body would quickly die.
Same if you look at Soil ecology. Trees, plants, fungi help each other, not because they're "nice", but out of their own enlightened self-interest to keep the ecosystem flourishing (and for themselves to survive).
Ultimately, and though this is only my worldview, our survival depends upon on co-operation and inter-dependence. Any attempt otherwise would only lead to our slow demise.

shamangineer wrote: There would absolutely still be risk. Just not the risk of dying destitute in the streets of a medical condition or due to a job loss.

Slavery is a situation where the most basic of needs and rights are conditional and are tied to authority. Freedom is a condition where needs and rights of a person do not face constraints unless they negatively impact others.

People serving prison sentences get all of their 'basic' needs met...I wouldn't exactly call that an ideal situation.

And you continue pretending that authorities/rulers won't be involved in UBI...as well as pretending that mass numbers of people in the West are in danger of "dying destitute in the streets of a medical condition or due to a job loss".

shamangineer wrote:

enjoypolo wrote:

The one thing I like to ask people is: what would you do, if you had an extra $1,000 a month?

If everyone (or most people) are simply given $1000/month, wouldn't the cost of goods/services simply rise by a corresponding amount, thereby defeating the very purpose of giving people 'free' money?

enjoypolo wrote: Another reflection I had, was that perhaps I took for granted that given some resources, people would generally go towards achieving their sense of Meaning in life.

Easy way to test this theory: look at the groups which get the most 'free' stuff now (poor/lazy/stupid people & the retired). Do they seem to be doing anything particularly useful or meaningful w/the money they get which is stolen from working/productive people?

enjoypolo wrote: PS: The thing I like about UBI is not so much It, but what it's based upon. That is: Decentralization (which adds redundancy at every 'node'; and in turn creates resilience).

I don't understand why UBI proponents keep asserting that a program run by a central authority/ruling-class is an example of "decentralization"...it would be like saying the same about Social Security and Medicare.

Also there is this little factor to consider:

U.S. National Debt Hits Record $22 Trillion (and counting!)

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/13/6941...trillion-a-new-record-thats-predicted-to-fall

Your Pension Is a Lie: There's $210 Trillion Of Liabilities Our Government Can't Fulfill

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnma...ies-our-government-cant-fulfill/#38f74a1c65b1

hisich wrote: If everyone (or most people) are simply given $1000/month, wouldn't the cost of goods/services simply rise by a corresponding amount, thereby defeating the very purpose of giving people 'free' money?

Exactly the same, eh. How convenient for your argument, have any data to back it up? What about economies of scale?

hisich wrote: Easy way to test this theory: look at the groups which get the most 'free' stuff now (poor/lazy/stupid people & the retired). Do they seem to be doing anything particularly useful or meaningful w/the money they get which is stolen from working/productive people?

So your argument is essentially these are garbage people?

hisich wrote: I don't understand why UBI proponents keep asserting that a program run by a central authority/ruling-class is an example of "decentralization"...it would be like saying the same about Social Security and Medicare.

The idea is that the government would be representative. UBI is not a panacea, but a part of a larger push to democratize our government and decentralize authority which is currently arranged as a plutocracy. It requires more democracy rather than simply giving up on any sort of democratic ideal like yourself.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746
From above:
"Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence."

hisich wrote:
Also there is this little factor to consider:

U.S. National Debt Hits Record $22 Trillion (and counting!)

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/13/6941...trillion-a-new-record-thats-predicted-to-fall

Your Pension Is a Lie: There's $210 Trillion Of Liabilities Our Government Can't Fulfill

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnma...ies-our-government-cant-fulfill/#38f74a1c65b1

A bunch of American businesses have gotten a refund for paying zero taxes this year. I suppose hat has nothing to do with this. The cause is obviously just poor people barely scraping by living off equal parts condiments, sugar, flour, and disgust.

hisich wrote: Can you explain to me how the govt. functions any differently than a psychopathic organized crime gang or slavery corporation...?

Or, for that matter, how you promoting UBI is any different...?

I'm not promoting it and the Government (the controlling mind) is slightly psychopathic, in the big picture but the people who are the cogs in the the big machine are blind and truly believe they are doing it for the good of the people.

Depending on how far you are deep in the system - hooked on media, and the other mind manipulations, will depen on how you would use the money.
It takes a few years to unlearn the conditioning & Schooling, years more to discover teachings that will resonate with you to help elevate your Self and seek your Individuation.

Like Smart phones, UBI could easily be a tool for continued enslavement of the masses that are below a certain veil of consciousness, a Tool to help curious people remove the shackles of enslavement and start there own hero's jounrney to get they out of that enslavement, and also a tool for a person who is outside Plato's cave to bring glimmers of hope to those enslaved by it.

It is multi layer and multi faceted - Like Plato's cave the man who escapes and goes back to directly remove the chains and show them life outside the cave will mocked, shamed, and probably killed those he is trying to help.

A message in a movie or a song will be completely missed by those who cannot hear or see it, and be the turn key solution to enlighten the person sat next to the them.

shamangineer wrote: Exactly the same, eh. How convenient for your argument, have any data to back it up? What about economies of scale?

Is what I suggested really so outlandish?

shamangineer wrote: So your argument is essentially these are garbage people?

UBI folks claim that giving people 'free' money will enable to "pursue their dreams", etc. I simply asked if the people getting 'free' money now are particularly useful or creative...I guess you're not going to answer that question either.

shamangineer wrote: The idea is that the government would be representative. UBI is not a panacea, but a part of a larger push to democratize our government and decentralize authority which is currently arranged as a plutocracy. It requires more democracy rather than simply giving up on any sort of democratic ideal like yourself.

OK, so you want me to accept that a massive welfare programs involving 100,000,000's (or possibly BILLIONS) of people, run by a central ruling authority, is an example of 'decentralization'...but you did use the words "democratize" & "democracy", so I guess that squares this particular circle!

shamangineer wrote: A bunch of American businesses have gotten a refund for paying zero taxes this year. I suppose hat has nothing to do with this. The cause is obviously just poor people barely scraping by living off equal parts condiments, sugar, flour, and disgust.

This doesn't even pretend to address the 'small' problem of the extant 10's of TRILLION$ involving previous promises of 'free' shit on the part of govt...but I guess in the world of UBI rainbows & unicorns, answering tough Q's (or Q's of any kind apparently) isn't considered relevant!